In Attendance: All members present except Bryan Dunn. New member Paul Roos (appointed to replace Leland Blatter, who asked to be replaced due to new work-related time commitments) present. Also present were FWP staff members (Director Jeff Hagener, Paul Sihler, Mike Korn, Michael Downey, Alan Charles), Jean Johnson, Craig Sharp, John Gibson, Bill Orsello, Mike Whittington, Rebecca Wood, and Hank Worsech.

1) Welcome/Agenda Review - Tom Hougen: (See Attachment #1 - Agenda); Members introduced themselves to new member Paul Roos, a lifelong Montana resident who operates a fishing and birdhunting outfitting business and who maintains residences both in Helena and on the North Fork of the Blackfoot River near Ovando.

2) Adminstration/Department Message - FWP Director Jeff Hagener: Jeff discussed the need to better align Council member appointments with legislative cycles, and asked Council members to confirm with Alan Charles prior to the end of the meeting whether or not they would accept appointment term extensions that would extend current terms (expiring June 30, 2002) through May 30, 2003 ). Jeff also explained that the fishing access enhancement program authorized by the 2001 legislature, with approximately $40,000 funding, would be administered by the FWP Fisheries Division, and that the Department would keep the Council informed about how the program was being implemented, but that the Council would not be asked to deal specifically with that program during this initial phase, given the magnitude of other issues the Governor has asked the Council to address. Jeff also noted that he was asking members of the Block Management Working Group (BMWG) to accept extended terms of appointment through February 2002, with a specific charge of assisting the Department in a review of program ARM rules. He noted that the BMWG was appointed as a working group to report specifically to the Director regarding day-to-day implementation aspects of that program,. while the PL/PW Council was appointed to deal with larger scope issues related to hunter access and landowner impacts, including possible statutory changes which may or may not be related to Block Management. Referring to the letter sent to Council members by Governor Martz, Jeff asked the Council to consider developing a thorough and objective evaluation of how the current system of license allocation, license preference, and variable-priced license system is working to meet the needs of the various interested parties, with the Council developing whatever recommendations may be needed for improvement or revision. Also needed, he suggested, was a thorough and objective evaluation of how the outfitting industry is functioning under the current system of NCHU and variable-priced licensing, with a larger look at the whole picture of hunting access in Montana as it relates to licensed outfitter activities, fee hunting, FWP access programs, and general wildlife management and hunter opportunities needs. He noted that the Department was focusing more effort on trying to work more effectively with new or non-traditional landowners, and encourage area landowners to work together as a community of people whose individual land management decisions affect neighboring landowners and local residents.

3) 2001 Legislative Review - Paul Sihler: (See attachment #2 - 2001 Legislative Proposals). Paul briefly discussed each bill, with Senator McNutt and Representative Clark offer legislator's perspectives. For this meeting record, only the comments related to SB 285, the bill based on PL/PW recommendations, are listed. Paul Sihler noted that this was one of the very few bills passed in the 2001 legislative session that contained any type of fee increase for Montana residents. Senator McNutt said that the early legislative tone was not favorable toward anything that could be construed as a new tax, but that the successful passage of this bill was evidence of the necessary background work being done ahead of time, making a tremendous difference. He said that members of the public, Council members, and the Department had all done their homework and supported the process at the necessary times. Representative Clark said the process was good, and that all players did their part, noting that Council members should learn from the difference between how things went in 1999, versus 2001, with success coming from developing a plan, from start to finish, and then making the necessary effort.

4) FWP Access Programs - Alan Charles: Upland Game Bird Habitat Enhancement Program - Alan said regional maps with program updates were due to be posted in the regional offices again this fall, and said he had offered to assist with funding and field staff time to provide for more signs marking project areas. Block Management Program - preliminary indications are that approximately 1100 landowners will enroll about 8.3 million acres, reflecting about 150 new landowners in the program. Examples of some of the ways in which Council recommendations are reflected in the 2002 program Include enrollment of several new areas specifically for pheasant hunting, a couple BMAs near Bozeman which will see some limited pheasant stocking coupled with habitat improvements to provide additional opportunity, nearly a dozen new areas enrolled within an hour's drive of Billings, and a variety of new public land access projects, some of which may fit in well with Access Montana. Access Montana - Alan noted that Michael Downey was moving forward with a number of new access projects, ranging from cooperative projects with BLM, DNRC, and USFS to open new tracts of land in several parts of the state, to negotiating long-term easement corridors in a couple areas, to developing shorter-term corridor agreements that might involve the Department providing a couple cattleguards in exchange for a five-year access agreement. Alan also noted that nearly 30 people had sent in Access Problem Identification Forms, with a mix of results that ranged from identifying areas where people were mistaken about land ownership to resolution of specific conflicts and improved boundary markings.

5) Board of Outfitters - Hank Worsech: After noting that the Board of Outfitters was now placed under the Department of Labor, rather than the Commerce Department, Hank explained how the Board was currently implementing some of the changes recommended in the legislative audit report. Referring to handouts(See attachment #3 - MBO information), Hank explained how the Board was compiling information about outfitter operations plans and reflecting NCHU. Upon completion of the report, Council member Verle Rademacher noted that, having served 8 years as a Council member, he was very impressed and pleased with what he perceived as a dramatic change in how the Board of Outfitters' business was being conducted under Hank Worsech's direction. He said he appreciated the professional way Hank provided the necessary information and felt that the public's desire for information was being served well. Chairman Tom Hougen also commented that he felt there had a been a significant improvement in how

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business was being conducted by the Board of Outfitters and how necessary information was being compiled and disseminated.

5) Public Comment - morning and afternoon sessions: 5 people spoke - comments summarized below:

Mike Whittington: Representing Billings Rod & Gun Club and Montana Wildlife Federation, I think the Council's work is crucial to the sportsmen and women of Montana, and I hope we can interact with the Council in a positive way. I urge the Council to keep open the possibility of perhaps combining hunting and fishing access in some areas, since some riparian areas might provide a good mix of upland bird hunting and fishing. Regarding the new fishing access

program, how will be public have access to the design and administration of a pilot program - I hope FWP will provide that opportunity. Regarding Block Management, I have a concern about how dollars are distributed, think dollars need to go toward developing more opportunities near metropolitan areas as a priority, think we need more upland bird hunting areas offering quality upland bird hunting. I would like to see more emphasis on public land access corridors, more permanent solutions like easement, acquisitions, etc. I think we need to look also at disincentives to discourage landowners who isolate public lands or block public access to public lands. We need to work on marking public lands, and from a philosophical viewpoint, we need to keep wildlife management with FWP, and not abrogate those management responsibilities to landowners. I'd like to see the Council provide specific direction to FWP for allocation of funding for the various access programs, both funding and geographical distribution. (afternoon

John Gibson: President, Montana Wildlife Federation (MWF), noting he had retired from Forest Service, said one thing MWF wants is for the Council to conduct some statewide forums to discuss incentives and disincentives for landowners who do or don't provide public hunting access. Other issues that could be discussed include game damage laws and license allocations. He said MWF was vitally interested in the Block Management Program, monitoring quality and control, and encouraged the department to hire more people to better manage some areas. Citing privatization and commercialization of wildlife as a major problem, he suggested the Council might look at taxation of lands being leased for hunting. John also suggested that another way to influence access was to encourage FWP to base permit allocations on available access and on resident/nonresident ratios in some areas. Several Council members asked questions of John, including: Q? Regarding a place like the Flying D, where under your proposal a specific number of residents would be issued bull permits, do you think there are actually enough residents willing to pay $10,500 for those permits? A. No, but that's his (Ted Turner's) problem, if he can't get enough animals harvested because of the fees he wants to charge. One Council member noted that the use of permits to control elk harvest has an interesting history behind it, where in theory permits create a substantial amount of elk hunting opportunity, in fact they have not created much opportunity for the "common" hunter; Q? Should licenses or permits perhaps be considered as incentives to limit or target specific access objectives related to elk management and elk hunting opportunity? A. MWF has no problem with legitimate complimentary landowner licenses as incentives for access. (afternoon comments: might revisit Senator Bishop's 2001 bill regarding trespass - failed in Senate Ag Committee - promoted sportsman's right to be on our own public land, and put responsibility on private landowner to

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mark his land. Also might want to look at Saskatchewan, where they are currently destroying deer and elk due to possible CWD infection.)

Jean Johnson- Executive Director, Montana Outfitters and Guides Association. Expressed view that MBO was functioning well now, noted that the current money and staff that made that possible came from members of the outfitting industry. Jean expressed appreciation to Senator McNutt and Representative Clark for their effective work in the legislature, also said there seemed to be more active support from the Governor's office under the current administration. She cited concerns about the current situation regarding Plum Creek Timber Company's real estate sales plans, and suggested that perhaps the Council might recommend the Governor establish a small group to meet with Georgia Pacific Company to identify and discuss the importance of those Plum Creek lands to Montana's sportsmen and women. Jean noted that outfitting does not operate under a free market system when the number of hunters is limited by law, and said outfitters have never asked that there not be a limit, just want people to understand that the current system does not operate as a free market. Jean said she was pleased that Governor Martz had asked the Council to look at the variable-priced license system, noting that the Pricing Committee that sets the price of the variable-priced license was meeting that day, and that there were problems with the current system that involved people buying the B-10 license on a long-shot hope that they might draw a special elk permit, without much chance of doing so, and that this hurt the public land outfitter as oversell situations forced up the license price. (afternoon comments - reported that the variable priced license price-setting committee had deadlocked over whether or not to raise price due to oversell - Commission will have to decide.)

Becca Wood: Natural Resources Coordinator for Montana Stock Growers Association, said that members feel that, with over half of the state's wildlife being found on private ground, and with landowners having to ship livestock out of state due to inadequate forage because wildlife ate necessary forage, something needs to be done. Regarding elk, either landowners need compensated for forage, or elk numbers need reduced. Some people don't want to run wildlife, they simply want to run livestock operations.

Bill Orsello: President-elect of Helena Hunters and Anglers Association, is concerned about direction of Montana hunting and fishing management, wants to advance the concept of public trust, public management of wildlife, allocation of benefits of public wildlife. Through leasing and fee hunting, there results inequitable allocation of wildlife benefits, and subsequently there also results a refuge situation that protects animal populations from necessary harvest or simply keeps animals in certain places for personal profit. Bill cited some provisions of Alberta's wildlife laws which address landowner responsibilities regarding wildlife damage and place restrictions on fee hunting and leasing.

6) Council Roundtable Discussion - Identifying Issues for Future Council Consideration: Council members spent much of the afternoon identifying issues in an open brainstorming session for future prioritization.

Tom Hougen re-appointed the Outfitter Issues Subcommittee (members appointed include: John Wilkinson, Chair; Dan Dart; Cecil Noble; Tom Hougen; Dave Simpson) to work on

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specific Outfitting Industry issues. Among the various issues identified for that committee to consider are those indicated below,

Examine industry dynamics - "big" versus "little" outfitting operations;

Consider outfitted hunting client in the definition of "public" hunter;

Evaluate how many outfitter clients apply for special elk permits, versus how many receive those elk permits;

Examine and evaluate the numbers of guides involved in the outfitting industry;

Evaluate outfitter clients in terms of hunters from general license pool and residents;

Other issues identified for future Council attention include:

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***Action Item for Council Members: Council members will be asked, in a separate letter, to rank these issues in order of priority to help determine the course of future Council activities.

7) NEXT MEETING: November 28 (Wednesday evening) and November 29 (Thursday), in Helena;

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